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How Many of You Came Over From PA? |
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MilesBeyond 
JMA Jazz Reviewer 
Joined: 14 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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 Topic: How Many of You Came Over From PA?Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 8:28pm |
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And how do you think that influences this site?
I'm especially curious about what those of you who aren't from PA might think. I noticed that at first, and even still now, there was a huge bias towards Fusion in general, and Miles in particular. This makes a lot of sense, as with all the PAers coming over here, I'm sure a lot just copy/pasted any relevant reviews over from that site, although that does raise the occasional awkward moment (such as Kind of Blue reviews stating that while it's great music, it shouldn't really be on this site). It has, however, left us in the rather awkward position of being a website where many giants of jazz have little to no reviews to their name (Diz and Monk come to mind). While I'm sure that will change in time, I'm curious as to whether that might be a turn-off to straight jazzers, if they come here and see very little attention given to certain artists. Please note that this isn't a criticism of the website, I think it's fantastic. But it's something that's been on my mind a bit. Also, a question about how this relates to jazz philosophy in general (thus justifying this thread being in this forum, heh): Where do you draw the line between looking back and moving forward? In other words, to focus more on recent artists and styles, in your mind is that a good thing? I can see either side of the equation. On one hand, I do believe there has been a great deal of progress and innovation made in jazz in the last 40 years or so, and I think celebrating and propagating that is huge. On the other hand, jazz is still to a large sense defined by its principal figures, many of whom are musical legends who still have yet to be surpassed, and I think that there's a lot to learn from them, as well as a lot of homage to be paid. So where do your buying habits trend? Seeking out new artists, or lapping up the old greats?
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dreadpirateroberts
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 9:00pm |
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I came from PA and now spend much more time here - but I've noticed the same trend - the fusion genres have more reviews etc and the lazy copy & paste thing is a shame, but it's a start, huh?
So I'm looking forward to seeing the balance even out over time - and I think it's happening now, but you're right, there are some giants that need (more) reviews! In that respect, I can only blame myself for not reviewing more of them myself hahaha! But I will get there - and it'll be a good excuse to better familiarize myself with some of those greats. For instance, I don't know early jazz very well at all, and bebop isn't as fun for me as hard & post bop and genres beyond, so there are gaps in my knowledge. Shameful gaps! But undoubtedly what's best about this site is that it introduces me to SO much. I'm lapping up the old greats and have been for the last ten or so years when I first got into Jazz. It's taking me so long because there are so many greats with massive discographies! However, I do like to try and keep an eye on newer jazz artists from here in Australia (partially because I have a chance of seeing them live) |
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js
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Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35190 |
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 9:25pm |
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To answer your final paragraph, I am all for moving forward and looking back as well as any horizontal movements in between. To lock yourself into either perpetual progress or lack of progress is like having narrowing blinders on.
As one of the people who helped put this site together before it went public I knew this site's association with a prog-rock site would pose certain challenges. From the beginning I knew fusion artists (especially from the 70s) would receive a lion's share of the attention, and to this day I am always happy when I see knowledgeable reviews about jazz's past as well as its future on our front page. Right now jazz is going through an excellent phase as popular artists are choosing innovative modern post bop and hard bop over smooth jazz, and other artists are pushing boundaries in the avant-garde and in places where jazz is combining with modern electronics. Today's world of jazz is more diverse, intelligent and open than ever. I really enjoy working on this site, artist evaluations are almost always a pleasure as I am always learning more about both jazz's past and future. My interest in rock is minimal compared to my interest in jazz, RnB, funk, exotica, avant-garde improv, jazzy rock etc, so this is the site I like to work with.
Edited by js - 02 Jan 2012 at 1:29pm |
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MilesBeyond
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Joined: 14 May 2011 Status: Offline Points: 28 |
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 11:10pm |
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Great posts, both. Food for thought.
Hey js, just so you know - I almost crapped myself when this site went live. I love the format of PA and to see it happening with jazz music is amazing. You guys have done some fantastic work - it looks amazing, and the artist listings, bios and discographies seemed extensive from the get-go. The idea of having genres assigned to an album rather than an artist was brilliant. I'm going to try and put in some solid review time. I've got a backlog of older jazz albums that I'd love to see reviews of on here. Especially Wes Montgomery. Possibly the greatest guitarist who ever lived. There's no way I could forgive myself for not submitting reviews of his stuff.
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js
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Posted: 01 Jan 2012 at 11:16pm |
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Thanks a lot, we would love to see more reviews, I have some Wes albums that I need to review myself.
The album genre idea comes from the new site template that Max had started at the metal site, but I like it too. It can lead to extra work in that often it is up to me or someone else to tag all the albums for an artist before they are added. Its amazing how many albums you can find audio samples for these days, but it can still be time consuming work.
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idlero
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 1:55am |
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I discovered JMA through PA but I'm not a fusion fan, the 'fusion bias' is a fact but hopefully in time it will get balanced .
These days I hear a lot more of the new releases, the old greats got a bit neglected also because I'm more into european jazz. |
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I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
Ken Burns |
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 3:26am |
Well, the huge majority of us come from PA, like in MMA as well... but I'd say that the side effects are greater here than in MMA So yes, it (PA origins) has a strong influence on the site and obviously it slants the site, but I'm quite certain that all of us are deploring this fact.... because the general idea was to open up this site to all sides of jazz-fans, not just the fusionheads... IMHO this JMA site was probably a greater gamble than the MMA (I actually advised M@X not to try it unless he was willing to lose time and money, because the bet was too risky  ), because if metal fans can be very sectarian, they're probably more open to new ventures like new generalistic sites such as MMA..... but jazz fans can (keyword, here ) be very sectarian (or snobby) as well ,and/but are not (or less) prone to new endeavours like JMA, because they like established publications that concentrate on more traditional forms of jazz. I dare say that jazz circles will generally be less tolerant or amateurish reviewing - I'm not saying we're amateurish since most of us have quite a lot of reviewing experience and a great number of reviews, but unless we're recognized as experts in the jazz scene, our reviews are not likly to be read with any kind of interest by the jazz public I still get four or five mails a month for my PA reviews (including my JR/F reviews), but have yet to get one for my JMA reviews So yes, the actual fusion slant of JMA could hurt the site's attractivity to more general or traditional jazz fans.... it's something that I would like to see corrected and hopefully will happen in time Soooooo aware of this fact, my contributions to the site (past my lazy copy-pasting of my PA reviews here) are to try and review some more standard (read non-fusion) artistes... But even then , despite my efforts, I can see i concentrate my efforts on post-bop and fusion era (read 60's & 70's), which is where I seem stuck in a time wrap.... even if the albums are more trad-jazz styles... Actually when I review a JR/F album nowadays, I tend tio write it more for JMA than PA, nowadays  However, I must say that I've got little or no interest (despite having some knowledge through my father's tastes in jazz) of/for pre-59 jazz.... So don't look for me to review Satchmo, Big Bill, Lionel, Slim or even Duke in the near future (I know I should for the site's sake, but I lack the drive) ... maybe some day... But even then, I'd be worried of writing too slanted reviews (not positive enough), because of my time -wrapped preferrences... So I'd abstain....It would be sad that the only JMA review on a Jimmy rushing album would be unfavourable (even if I actually liked him when a kid), because of my partisan tastes...------------------------------------------------ as for your second question, I'm not much into the new releases, partly ouit of interest (or lack of), but mostly because I still have huge holes to fill in the older stuff, so I'd say I concentrate on buying older stuff I still have yet to discover Edited by Sean Trane - 02 Jan 2012 at 3:40am |
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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dreadpirateroberts
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 4:05am |
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Sean, you haven't copy & pasted reviews, have you? Naughty naughty!
But seriously, I wish I'd reviewed more at PA so I could copy some across (adjusting the wording of course) because I have only reviewed 70 or so albums since I joined, and it doesn't feel like enough! Sean, you;ve got 1088 Reviews/Ratings, John is on nearly 300 Reviews/Ratings and Slava is over 1300. Massive! |
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We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
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idlero
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 4:18am |
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As I see it, it doesn't matter if reviews are writtem by professional
reviewers or amateurs, what I am looking in PA and hopefully will find
in JMA in the future is information about artists and albums(mostly new
but old ones too).
I read jazz reviews on at least 2-3 sites(even the freejazz blogspot where probably less than 1% of the recommendations are suited to my tastes) , and I do it for finding information and opinions on new releases. Even if the 'professional' reviews are seldom critical they still are useful for my purposes and many of my jazz 'discoveries' were made after reading the albums reviews. |
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I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
Ken Burns |
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 5:00am |
Yeah, my numbers may look impressive here, but JR/F was the genre I reviewed most on PA (above 400), so the copy-pasting did a lot to increase my number in JMA.... However, I must say that I have't adapted the reviews to fit JMA .... Originally I had done so to fill in a max reviews to make the JMA site look not so empty ........ a bit as M@X had asked me to do as in PA in early 2004.... back then I had written a bunch of one or two-liners (something like 700 in two months), none of which have survived (well maybe the odd-forgotten one), since the vast majority have been re-written over the years.... My bad for not adapting my reviews, but I just don't have time to fix it (much busier now than back then)And in PA,I have very few ratings only (less than 50 in above 3000), but here, I believe I must have a good 50 to 40% of ratings only) |
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 5:05am |
actually I find professional writers/reviewers' reviews very uninformative in the specialized mags' dedicated review sections.... but the readership seem to base their choices much more obn those often quickly-scribbled reviews from prof writers mùuch more than on amateur fellow listeners (at least in jazz circles) on web sites.... hopefully JMA and AAJ will fix that... |
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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idlero
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 5:47am |
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The advantage of sites like PA and JMA is that when reading a review, by looking at the reviewer's ratings list you know if you have the same tastes like him or not. Even if I read most of John Fordham's( my ratings come pretty close to his in many cases) reviews, I don't have the historical information about his ratings available.
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I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ...
Ken Burns |
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Matt
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 12:59pm |
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Love my Jazz more so than my Prog which John noticed and invited me over to here. Like a duck to water, I was in my element and when one checks my reviews total and effort, JMA wins by a mile. I do think we are a little heavy with Fusion etc reviews but I do notice quite a few are starting to get away from them and having a crack at some other stuff.
I have been waiting for a Latino who knows his Salsa and Son to join. Trouble is by the time he does I probaly will have finished adding all those albums for Afro Cuban artists.
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Matt
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 4:34pm |
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I would just like to say off the bat that I don't know what the hell PA is and would never ever ever ever hang out there.
 That site does get a little tiresome at times and am glad to have this site as a supplement. I was more active in the beginning here but these days my basic tack is when I have the impulse to type away on non music subjects I take it up over there and stay focused on music over here. If there's something that fits for both sites for a review I haven't tailored it for one site over the other. I do try to make reviews universal even before this site was born. One of the things I think this site really got right was structuring it not to make second class citizens of some of the artists. I think doing that with prog related and proto-prog has led to many a pointless discussion. I find an interesting irony that I can review some albums here by artists that are worthy of being on that site, but some folks are a bit too bullheaded about letting on the riff raff. There is often a bit of an unseemly purity obsession. Ah well. Edited by Slartibartfast - 02 Jan 2012 at 4:40pm |
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darkshade
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 10:08pm |
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I'm from PA, and I love the half star option that PA does not offer.
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darkprinceofjazz
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Posted: 02 Jan 2012 at 11:08pm |
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I too came over from PA, but over there I did not review much, my expertise, if you can call it that, is more in the modern jazz realm, fusion as well, I was always uncomfortable with jazz reviews over there, But over time, I felt PA was really more of a Progressive music site, not just rock, so accepting that in my own mind let me get over any conflicts in the genres being reviewed or any perceived bias of a reviewer, I would have to say at PA, any music that is not considered mainstream or geared for mainstream consumption is PA worthy, here at JMA, anything jazz related is fine.
I will freely admit, I don't listen to hardly any new music, an exception was that Mastodon The Hunter album, I went through a phase of daily listening to that for weeks on end, that hadn't happened, that type of obsession I mean with a rock album since I was a15 year old kid, hearing Gun's N' Roses Appetite for Destruction for the first time, who knows why certain albums grab you, Miles Davis grabbed me back in '99, and I just fell in love with modern jazz, but I am a music schizophrenic, I will listen to just about anything, I discover new artists and albums on a weekly basis, most old, some new, perfect example, is yesterday I heard 2 Les Mccann albums for the first time, Layers and Invitation to Openness, both records nearly 40 years old, but new to me, and fantastic progressive jazz funk at that. And speaking of PA, I was turned on to Jaga Jazzist there, one of my favorite new artists. |
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Stooge
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Posted: 03 Jan 2012 at 10:05am |
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I'm pretty certain I was looking into some jazz fusion bands when I discovered PA and decided to join. Naturally, I learned of this site from kicking around on there and Metal Music Archives and got jazzed about it.
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The_Jester
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Posted: 05 Jan 2012 at 12:45pm |
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I originally made a forum post on PA saying that there should be a kind of Jazz Archives and so some people told me they were going to work on the project. When the site launched I received an e-mail from Progarchives saying I would be interested because I liked jazz rock/fusion and Canterbury Scene. I guess I would consider myself as comig over from PA.
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Cannonball With Hat
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Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 3:17pm |
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I too ventured over from the depths of PA. I have always enjoyed jazz but I haven't really explored much beyond a year or two ago. Part of it was there were very few jazz outlets for information (at least that I found/found good/easy to use/etc) on various artists and works and all that. So there is plenty of potential good for me coming from this website. As for the fusion slant...I agree with mostly everyone else...over time it should be corrected, at least to some degree. I'll admit, it does kind of look funny to have the top 5 rated albums be 4 Davis and 1 Hancock (at least thats what it was last time I checked, which has been a couple of days) but beyond that I'm not too concerned about it. As a tangent...personally I'm more concerned with the lack of complete discogs I've found around the site. Now, I must preface this with I haven't been around the real site for awhile (couple months) so things could definitely be different now, and forgive me if they are, but there seem to be a few rather odd incomplete discogs around. Obviously I haven't checked everyone, but the most glaring to me seems to be Davis, which last time I checked had more albums over at PA than here at JMA (which boggles frankly). Peter Brotzmann also seems to have been affected by this. Hopefully things have changed since I last explored, but IMO this looks more silly (or unprofessional or however you want to state it) than a fusion slant. Maybe it's just me though, and maybe it's not an issue anymore, but just something that came to my mind when I thought about this thread. But I digress.... Anyway...I guess your question garners the question...how much is this being advertised in the non PA world? Do others outside seem interested in this sort of site? Just curious of course. As for my buying habits...still filling in the holes of my jazz collection. My miles collection has come along nicely, and now working on Coltrane (moreso than others). Still got alot of the great ones out there to listen to, but I fear it will be slow going for me, so who knows when I'll get to the new stuff. Too much music, too little time.
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Hit it on Five.
Saxophone Scatterbrain Blitzberg Stab them in the ears. |
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js
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Posted: 10 Jan 2012 at 6:34pm |
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^ I'm glad to hear you want to help with the discogs, feel free to add any missing albums you want.
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MilesBeyond wrote: