Hard bop or hardly bop?

I changed "Sound of Sonny" to hard bop. Calling it post bop was understandable because there is very little blues on there, but just the general directness of the music seemed closer to hard bop. Its another example of how more than one tag can fit.

Instinct is the best. I hear things by instinct first, and then try to figure out why later.

It does not take any knowledge of music theory to hear the difference between bop and post or hard bop, they just sound obviously different.

I don't know how much music theory you know, but bebop uses 'functional' harmony based around the ii V7 I chord change. Its the same harmonic progressions we hear in classical music (Mozart, Haydn on up to Chopin) as well as sophisticated pop music of the pre-WW II era and a few years after that.

Hard bop is more modal, often based around minor blues chord changes.

In bebop the harmonies move and change faster, while in hard bop they are more apt to stay on chords where the harmony stays the same.

In other words a bop player is having to change the scales he is playing faster than the hard bop player.

Also, early bebop tends to use faster tempos than hard bop, but not always.

Its that functional harmony that makes bop sound 'old fashioned' to modern ears. Todays music, from metal to hip hop and almost everything else is based around the sound of minor blues, Chicago blues actually.

To that I would add that some bebop was based around minor blues changes as well.

Edited by js - 24 Apr 2017 at 7:21pm

While we're at it, how does one differentiate between 'Bop' and 'Hard bop' and is 'Bebop' = 'Bop'?

That of course doesn't make them post bop! I agree with your tags ultimately haha

I'd keep "Favorite Things" in hard bop too. Two of the songs are pure hard bop, the song "My Favorite Things" is in between hard and post bop, and then there is the ballad. Ballads can happen in any genre, and usually I don't use them to determine genre.

True enough!! Here's a question: what Coltrane album was his first post bop release? You guys have his stuff listed as hard bop until A Love Supreme. Could one make a case for albums like Giant Steps or Favorite Things?

That's kinda what I thought but I never saw any information before. Where did you see that?

I guess that is Jackie, I always assumed Jackie was black.

There isn't necessarily one correct tag for an album, I think post bop would be a legitimate tag for that album.

By the way, I don't get the cover for that album.

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js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Hard bop or hardly bop? Posted: 25 Apr 2017 at 7:05am
	I changed "Sound of Sonny" to hard bop. Calling it post bop was understandable because there is very little blues on there, but just the general directness of the music seemed closer to hard bop. Its another example of how more than one tag can fit.

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 8:56pm
	I appreciate your time and knowledge in this forum! The question of Hard Bop or Hardly Bop persists haha. Here's an album that is in line with the original intent of this thread: Sound of Sonny // Sonny Rollins. That's an interesting album, but I don't know that I would have called it Post Bop myself. The unaccompanied track is off beat, but is it that far out there?

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 8:53pm
	Instinct is the best. I hear things by instinct first, and then try to figure out why later. It does not take any knowledge of music theory to hear the difference between bop and post or hard bop, they just sound obviously different.

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 8:50pm
	That's very interesting, thank you for going through that for me. Didn't realize there was a tonal explanation for why old pop music sounds the way it does. I took Music Theory I (for majors) in college, but I'm no expert. I try to keep up with chord progressions when they seem important but I'm more than happy to just listen passively haha. That said, I mainly try to rely on instinct when it comes to identifying interesting chords/harmonies/etc.

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 5:49pm
	I don't know how much music theory you know, but bebop uses 'functional' harmony based around the ii V7 I chord change. Its the same harmonic progressions we hear in classical music (Mozart, Haydn on up to Chopin) as well as sophisticated pop music of the pre-WW II era and a few years after that. Hard bop is more modal, often based around minor blues chord changes. In bebop the harmonies move and change faster, while in hard bop they are more apt to stay on chords where the harmony stays the same. In other words a bop player is having to change the scales he is playing faster than the hard bop player. Also, early bebop tends to use faster tempos than hard bop, but not always. Its that functional harmony that makes bop sound 'old fashioned' to modern ears. Todays music, from metal to hip hop and almost everything else is based around the sound of minor blues, Chicago blues actually. To that I would add that some bebop was based around minor blues changes as well. Edited by js - 24 Apr 2017 at 7:21pm

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 5:31pm
	My understanding has been that bop and hard bop are somewhat like timestamps but isn't there a big musical difference?

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 24 Apr 2017 at 4:56pm
	While we're at it, how does one differentiate between 'Bop' and 'Hard bop' and is 'Bebop' = 'Bop'?

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 8:11pm
	One thing to keep in mind, on a lot of albums, more than one tag could fit, but we have to settle on one, its not always an easy decision. Some of these albums by the 'young lions' of the 90s up to recently are always right in between hard and post bop. I listened to some albums over and over trying to get a decision, its not easy sometimes. Then there are those people like Coleman Hawkins who are right in between swing and bop, or Monk who is right in between bop and hard bop, etc.

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:46pm
	That of course doesn't make them post bop! I agree with your tags ultimately haha

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:45pm
	That all makes sense to me, I'm mainly responding to Giant Steps' famous chord changes and Favorite Things' spaciness. I don't know how much things like that come in to play. Coltrane's albums sound so ahead of everyone else in that time period

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:32pm
	I'd keep "Favorite Things" in hard bop too. Two of the songs are pure hard bop, the song "My Favorite Things" is in between hard and post bop, and then there is the ballad. Ballads can happen in any genre, and usually I don't use them to determine genre.

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:17pm
	I think "Giant Steps' should probably stay as hard bop, but let me look into "Favorite Things".

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 7:14pm
	True enough!! Here's a question: what Coltrane album was his first post bop release? You guys have his stuff listed as hard bop until A Love Supreme. Could one make a case for albums like Giant Steps or Favorite Things?

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 6:10pm
	Just looking at his face, I really don't know, but he looks like a racially mixed person. Either way, he is one hell of saxophone player.

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 5:37pm
	That's kinda what I thought but I never saw any information before. Where did you see that?

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 3:25pm
	Actually, I guess he is racially mixed.

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 3:03pm
	I guess that is Jackie, I always assumed Jackie was black.

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 2:08pm
	Oh wow, until this very moment I always just assumed it was him standing on a ship's mast or something. Upon closer examination... I'm not sure if that's him or not. And it looks like he's standing in front of some antennas?

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35162	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 12:56pm
	There isn't necessarily one correct tag for an album, I think post bop would be a legitimate tag for that album. By the way, I don't get the cover for that album.

liontime Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Special Collaborator Joined: 22 Jan 2016 Location: Albuquerque Status: Offline Points: 124	Post Options Post Reply Quote liontime Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 23 Apr 2017 at 12:45pm
	Fair enough I think you're right. In my personal collection I have it tagged as post bop mostly cause of the packaging