Canterbury Groups Missing

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   I was glad to see obvious jazzy bands like Soft Machine and Hatfield & the North, but was surprised with the omission of bands like The Muffins, National Health, Gilgamesh, Supersister and Picchio dal Pozzo. 

All these, in my opinion, are clearly jazz inclined. National Health being classic fusion, and maybe the others JR Rock.

Not so sure much about Caravan, they do have Waterloo Lily which is jazzy, but maybe that's not sufficient. 

Thoughts?

Edited by Abraxas - 10 Mar 2011 at 4:33pm

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Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Canterbury Groups Missing Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 4:24pm
	I was glad to see obvious jazzy bands like Soft Machine and Hatfield & the North, but was surprised with the omission of bands like The Muffins, National Health, Gilgamesh, Supersister and Picchio dal Pozzo. All these, in my opinion, are clearly jazz inclined. National Health being classic fusion, and maybe the others JR Rock. Not so sure much about Caravan, they do have Waterloo Lily which is jazzy, but maybe that's not sufficient. Thoughts? Edited by Abraxas - 10 Mar 2011 at 4:33pm

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 4:33pm
	I'm interested, can you drop off some easy sound samples like you tube clips or myspace pages. No time consuming mp3 downloads please.

Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 4:40pm
	^no prob, John: It will either remind you a bit of Zappa or of Soft Machine, in most cases. Or other British Fusion acts. Just remembered of Henry Cow, that might be a good addition to the site or not. Edited by Abraxas - 10 Mar 2011 at 4:42pm

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 4:45pm
	^ ssshhh I'm listening to the hippie jazz music. Henry Cow is here in Jazz Related Rock, Fred Frith shows up in a couple genres, Wyatt too.

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 5:11pm
	Thats fun music. So far i have: Gilgamesh - Classic Fusion the Muffins - Classic Fusion Supersister - Jazz Related Rock National Health clip wouldn't play, I've heard them before, I just need to hear something to remind me. Do you have one more clip for Picchio dal Plaza, they are hard to classify. Also, do you have the country of origin on all theses, I will add them later. Thanks for the suggestions.

Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 6:36pm
	^ Gilgamesh - UK The Muffins - U.S.A Supersister - Netherlands National Health - UK Picchio dal Pozzo - Italy Here's some more Picchio: National Health (they're very similar to The Muffins): Now that I think of it again, Picchio dal Pozzo may not be the best suited for a jazz-related genre, although they're clearly inspired by Zappa and probably Henry Cow, and some Soft Machine. But I'll let you decide with those samples I gave you. If you need any more info/help for the addition, just let me know. Edited by Abraxas - 10 Mar 2011 at 6:40pm

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Mar 2011 at 8:23pm
	Thanks Of the 5, The Muffins are just straight up Classic Fusion. National Health is more rock like, they have a lot of structure and composition, and their melodies are rock like, but they do have some nice fusion sections, so they can go in JR-Rock. Picchio dal Pozzo is a great band and they have a jazzy sound, but hardly any improv at all. Some of the horn arrangements were jazz band like, but musically they are pure composed art-rock/prog-rock. I like them a lot, maybe we can add them later when we see how the site goes, but i would recommend waiting on that one.

snobb Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site Admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Vilnius Status: Offline Points: 29719	Post Options Post Reply Quote snobb Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 1:45am
	Gilgamesh (with their only studio album) are one between classic Canterbury jazz fusion bands , Alan Gowen's first project (we have Gowen solo added to Classic Fusion ) and start to his serious career on Canterbury scene. I always had difficulties with National Health though. They are often named as "last Canterbury scene classic band", and it has sense. Formed still from same known musicians, the time around was different already, and their sound is borderline with ... let say chamber rock . Their music missed humor and fun of any real Canterbury band, but they concentrated on technical aspects,playing self-closed complex music. Real borderline band for the genre, still have some formal Canterbury elements, but ruled but head,not by heart. Edited by snobb - 11 Mar 2011 at 1:50am

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 6:43am
	I found National Health's music to be similar to bands like ELP, and thats not a criticism either, ELP is great, but it is very structured music with some improv sections. National Health's melodies are very regal and British.

Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 2:29pm
	^Ok, then, National Health's album JR Related then? I really don't see much difference between National Health's structured compositions and Return to Forever's or Bruford's structured and technical ones. Just my opinion of course. Edited by Abraxas - 11 Mar 2011 at 2:37pm

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 6:17pm
	^ I see what you mean with certain later RTF albums, but the early ones are pure jazz, plus the band members come from a pure jazz background. Even the later RTF albums have more jazz improv than a typical Health song. Bruford is hard to categorize, a lot of Earthworks is post-bop, while some of his stuff is like National Health too. i think Classic Fusion for Bruford was just a lazy compromise You do realize I will be answering these same questions for new people day after day for the rest of my life until I go crazy. Its not easy picking a genre for bands that are inbetween, somebody has to do it and then stick to that decision, otherwise we have pure chaos, ...beautiful beautiful chaos.

Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 6:46pm
	^I understand John, I'll leave it as it is then, will add their albums under JR Related.

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 7:17pm
	I think the Bruford discog probably has some mis-labeled albums. I just don't know his solo music very well. The general rule on here is jazz musicians playing rock equals fusion, while rock musicians using jazz elements equals JR Rock. A good way to tell a true jazz musician with a jazz background is that they all know how to play those old standards by heart. McLaughlin can rock with the best, but he can also play 'Round Midnight' or 'Epistrophy' off the top of his head if you ask him to.

Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 7:42pm
	^ah I see, so it's not jazz+rock anymore, haha. Yeah, Return to Forever's debut, Light as a Feather, is listed as Classic Fusion though it's actually Latin Jazz. Whenever I'll be able to edit some info, meaning adding line-ups, I'll see if I can change some of the more obvious mis-labels. Though I'll leave the more doubtful labels, as in National Health's case, to you and other Collabs. Edited by Abraxas - 11 Mar 2011 at 7:44pm

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 7:56pm
	Yeah, I see what you are saying, 'Feather' is fusion with a very strong Latin influence, but maybe not as pure latin Jazz as many records on here. I probably need to listen to it again, which I will probably do tonight out of curiosity Something that Slava and I agreed on recently was that we don't want to nitpick every single album. Once a band, such as RTF, has an overall theme of Classic Fusion, we may put the different variations they have done over the years in Classic Fusion, but not neccesarily. Keep asking questions and raising points, that is how we work all this out and try to reach some sort of consensus so we are ready when the site is open. Re rock musicians playing fusion: a couple albums by rockers like Zappa and Jeff Beck are such good pure jazz fusion that we put those albums in Classic Fusion. Something else to consider is popular perception. I don't think its a good idea to be a one-man-against-the-world musicologist and say something like "The Allman Brothers album Eat a Peach is pure jazz, other people just don't know it". Since the popular perception of the Allman Brothers is as a rock band, then so be it.

Abraxas Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List JMA Collaborator Joined: 10 Mar 2011 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 1251	Post Options Post Reply Quote Abraxas Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 8:03pm
	^I agree with your last paragraph, and that's why my question about National Health arose. They might not be considered Fusion by all fusion experts, but admittedly everyone who has listened to them hear a strong jazz/fusion resemblance alongside Prog/Symphonic stuff. Regarding Light as a Feather, well, I wouldn't call it "fusion" in any way, but as you know, my knowledge of the definitions of jazz and its genres are not really that good. Do re-listen to Light as a Feather and tell me what you think, I consider it Latin Jazz. However, I agree that we shouldn't be so nitpicky, that was one of the main issues I thought that a jazz site would have to deal with. Say Miles Davis' discography, I was very happy to see that it had been divided very well in the genres he played. Edited by Abraxas - 11 Mar 2011 at 8:04pm

js Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Visit Members Homepage Add to Buddy List Forum Admin Group Site admin Joined: 22 Dec 2010 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 35356	Post Options Post Reply Quote js Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 8:32pm
	I couldn't find my copy of 'Feather", but I remember the album pretty well. Its a fusion influenced Latin Jazz album. It has authenticity as a Latin Jazz album because many of the musicians on the album come up through Latin music traditions. This site will not count dilletants experimenting with Latin rhythms as real Latin Jazz, but it also has a definite fusion influence on it. I would be happy with that one going either way: Latin Jazz because of the music Classic Fusion because of their history, popular perception and the albums leanings toward fusion. You know Matt and I don't agree on every genre label on here. I just let him work on what he works on and I work on what I work on and we don't go back and change each other's work .... very often I mean the difference between Jazz Related Blues and Soul Jazz is hardly worth losing sleep over. Re National Health: Ironically enough, I brought them up long ago for Classic Fusion but Slava told me they are "chamber rock" so we decided to put them aside. Its the melodies they use that make them sound like rock, those semi-military prog-rock melodies that are like the opposite of jazz to me. To their credit, when they play fusion it is really good fusion on the level of real jazz musicians. Its their public perception that made me want to put them in Classic Fusion, but just like Slava, I had a hard time with the music as jazz. Public perception is important though, if enough people complain, I would switch them to Classic Fusion, none of this is worth taking too seriously really.

darkshade Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Forum Senior Member Joined: 09 Mar 2011 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 1966	Post Options Post Reply Quote darkshade Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Mar 2011 at 10:47pm
	yea there's only a couple dozen people here and already there are big discussions about genre labeling. i like it
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