ECM

I'm in the camp who, for the most part, can't get into the ECM sound at all. 

snobb wrote: andyman1125 wrote: idlero wrote: IMO Blue Note is more "straight jazz", ECM is "different"-more Nu Jazz and Third Stream, also some World Fusion True. I guess I like a lot of that straight jazz  ECM at early 70s gave us all the line of excellent avant-garde jazz albums, recorded with their precise and crystal clear sound mix. Unfortunately very soon (mid-late 70s) they switched to less experimental more simplified music, mixing soft fusion with lot of folklore,what very soon became their "classic 80s" sound - safe well polished chamber world fusion very often on the border with terrible new age sound.  To be honest, they tried to return back to a bit more experimental (for its time) music, Molvaers some early albums were released on ECM, and some nowadays their releases are a bit more adventurous than all others, but historically looking they made the way (during few decades) from indie experimental label with very own face and sound to commercially successful conformist European chamber contemporary jazz /world fusion/new age label (still having their face and sound - and you don't expect no surprises from their well-crafted and super safe saloon music, still of highest standard though). ECM by no way is the label associated with progressive (or just innovative) nu jazz nowadays as well. Their few nu jazz releases usually present mix of contemporary jazz (or new age) with some nu jazz elements - saloon conformist music for younger consumers. But - of high quality as well.

Hmmm, I was about to contradict you, but then I remembered that while I probably only heard about 30 ECM albums (all of them top quality), you're the researcher kind of listener, who explores extensively. So you most likely know better then me what is the average of ECM releases outside the top ones.

Even still, I wouldn't call the mixing of jazz fusion and traditional music a "simplified music", at all. On the contrary, I find this mix one of the most outstanding ideas in the music of the last decades and paradigmatic to postmodern culture. Or maybe we're not talking about the same thing? I'm thinking of stuff like Garbareck's mix of Gregorian chant and jazz saxophone, Tibbett's mix of guitar ambient and Indian percussion, or Micus' mix of experimental sounds and Byzantine chant.

BTW I love Stephane Micus' Athos, where he does the mix with Byzantine chant, inspired by the daily cycles of a monastery from the Holy Mount Athos. That album is particularly more special to me as I've been to the Mount Athos (one of the most powerful experiences in my life, if not THE most).

BTW this film showing my brother's painting exhibition has music from Athos on the soundtrack:




Edited by harmonium.ro - 02 May 2011 at 7:53pm

snobb wrote: ECM at early 70s gave us all the line of excellent avant-garde jazz albums, recorded with their precise and crystal clear sound mix.

The section in bold was one of my big turnoffs regarding the label.

What 70's release would you considering excellent (this is just personal interest speaking)? For me Marion Brown's Afternoon of a Georgia Faun is a highlight from their earlier releases. It gets lumped in with the Free Jazz mob, but is really open, spacious free improvisation, closer to the Holland/Bailey album released a couple of years later (tho' far superior, imo). Put every inch of interesting (after a strong recommendation by a trusted friend) in enjoying Paul Bley's Open to Love to little avenge, mainly because of the recording, making the love I sort frost bitten 'round the edges.

Along the freer line the Music Improvisation Company LP's were passable, but were (generally speaking) put to shame by the LP's being release on fellow German label FMP (free music production).
Anyone got any opinions of Circle's Paris-Concert? 

Probably don't need to mention Conference of the Birds.

harmonium.ro wrote:   Hmmm, I was about to contradict you, but then I remembered that while I probably only heard about 40-50 ECM albums (all of them top quality), you're the researcher kind of listener, who explores extensively. So you most likely know better then me what is the average of ECM releases outside the top ones. Even still, I wouldn't call the mixing of jazz fusion and traditional music a "simplified music", at all. On the contrary, I find this mix one of the most outstanding ideas in the music of the last decades and paradigmatic to postmodern culture. Or maybe we're not talking about the same thing? I'm thinking of stuff like Garbareck's mix of Gregorian chant and jazz saxophone, Tibbett's mix of guitar ambient and Indian percussion, or Micus' mix of experimental sounds and Byzantine chant. BTW I love Stephane Micus' Athos, where he does the mix with Byzantine chant, inspired by the daily cycles of a monastery from the Holy Mount Athos. That album is particularly more special to me as I've been to the Mount Athos (one of the most powerful experiences in my life, if not THE most). BTW this film showing my brother's painting exhibition has music from Athos on the soundtrack:

Edited by snobb - 02 May 2011 at 3:11am

^ Not ECM-related comment  - speaking about orthodox holy places, I visited some Serbian and Montenegrian old monasteries in mountains and on Adriatic islands, there is really that genuine holy spirit. Similar air exists in some old Russian churches  in the middle of nowhere,places forgotten by God and people. Same as with world fusion - commercialization process kills (free) spirit everywhere.

snobb wrote: I understand your point of view on specific (technical) sound characteristics of early ECM releases (and possibly all ECM recordings in general), but it's more question of taste. At least, st early 70s they introduced their own very different sound as alternative to dominated raw sound of free jazz releases all around.  While there were lot of Garbarek's music  mentioning above, for me excellent examples of early ECM releases are three first Garbarek's album on label (his debut was released not on ECM).Starting from Witchi Tai-To he turned to more folklore influenced and much easier accessible music and very soon became one of jazzy folklore/ jazzy new age  standard ECM sound icon. Similar with Jarrett ( ok, his best albums are not on ECM but on US labels), but starting from one of the most successful commercially ECM release Koln Concert he showed the way how to mix jazz and classic in one attractive accessible and commercially successful product. I believe this his album is one which seriously influenced later Contemporary jazz ( post-bop mix with smooth jazz, with only small amount of classical elements - to make music even more accessible).

Yes, you are right, the production is just one facet of a larger whole which is taste. And it is an easy escape goat since I've not put much thought into my feelings towards the label as a whole; call it a willful ignorance if you will. So, in consideration of this, it has been interesting to read a bit of history behind the label.

I'll give Witchi-Tai-To at some stage thought it might not be soon.

snobb wrote: Very often it's not an artist's fault - label isn't interested in any experiments till artist's album sells well. Every change in sound could disappoint album's byers (listeners), label can't afford such risk. Small indie and non-commercial labels often release a lot of experimental music (big part of their releases are just garbage), but they have nothing to loose. Sometimes they release real brilliants. ECM were similar label at the beginning of their history, for last few decades they are successful business enterprise, producing high quality safe production :no big risk - no losses

Not sure I agree with this (not, to some extent, being the artist fault), but I think that might be an entirely different discussion altogether

idlero wrote: Krilons Resa wrote: I'm in the camp who, for the most part, can't get into the ECM sound at all.  I guess it's an acquired taste, somehow I always felt much more comfortable with the ECM sound than fusion for example, maybe because I like also classical music and much of ECM's recent releases are kind of chamber jazz

What do you guys consider to be the top 10 ECM albums?

Edited by darkshade - 03 May 2011 at 12:32am

darkshade wrote: What do you guys consider to be the top 10 ECM albums?

I couldn't possibly come up with a list of 10 (I rarely do in any kind of way, anyway)

Edited by Sean Trane - 03 May 2011 at 2:07pm

idlero wrote: Some of my favourites: Concert in Koln Officium Thimar

That's Keith Jarrett right? Ive heard of it.

I also have the Chick Corea - "Return to Forever" album, though I should listen to it again, it's been a long time. I also have a few Dave Holland albums, they're all really good.

Is "Circle" with Corea, Holland, and Anthony Braxton an ECM recording?