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Alice Coltrane Avant Garde jazz ???
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Jun 2011 at 4:59am
Really????Confused
 
 
Despite being the wife of the late Great John, I never found Alice to be anywhere close to avant-garde... especially given her Indian Classical Music spirituality quest throught 95% of her solo career.
 
I think she'd much better fit in World Fusion alongside Oregon (just to name one)
 
 
--------
 
 
I know I had decided not to challenge any genre decisions on JMA (given my siometimes disproportional reactions on PAEmbarrassed), but here, it seems a little too glaring not to at least voice my disapproval...
 
waddya think???Wink
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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darkshade View Drop Down
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I only have one album of hers, but Ive heard 2 of them, and yes, some are very Indian-influenced, but guys like Pharoah Sanders are on those albums, and the songs can go pretty far out. I always looked at her music as Avant-World Jazz; if that makes any sense Confused

Since I dont know more of her stuff, I can't give a truly proper answer, but Avant-Jazz seems fine. Maybe if someone else knows more about her music
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

I only have one album of hers, but Ive heard 2 of them, and yes, some are very Indian-influenced, but guys like Pharoah Sanders are on those albums, and the songs can go pretty far out. I always looked at her music as Avant-World Jazz; if that makes any sense Confused

Since I dont know more of her stuff, I can't give a truly proper answer, but Avant-Jazz seems fine. Maybe if someone else knows more about her music
well, You can already read my reviews I entered on JMA... Pharoah's reviews have been entered some three weeks ago... I'm working soon on McCoy tyner after this....
 
This said the Trane galaxy is one of my fave musical focus (my username is useing the Trane moniker)... I've listened to Alice Coltrane since the early 90's and think I can be trusted on this issueWink ... Pharoah is quite subdued on Alice's albums. Her albums simply never go dissonant or free-jazz.
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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js View Drop Down
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Avant-garde is not about dissonance or freedom, by definition it is about being on the forefront of change. In its time, Eno's pretty ambient music was avant-garde.
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I am recognizing that the music character of Alice Coltrane is spiritual jazz. It is felt that the avant-garde part is at least accompanied if it doesn't limit to jazz and those music is performed actually anyway.

The jazz hound can sort the genre to some degree. However, it might catch people who are not well versed in jazz as avant-garde music.

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Abraxas View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Kazuhiro Kazuhiro wrote:

I am recognizing that the music character of Alice Coltrane is spiritual jazz. It is felt that the avant-garde part is at least accompanied if it doesn't limit to jazz and those music is performed actually anyway.

The jazz hound can sort the genre to some degree. However, it might catch people who are not well versed in jazz as avant-garde music.


I agree with the "spiritual jazz" term, that's what I call "hippie jazz" hehe. It's not the classic avant-garde of say Ornette or Eric Dolphy and the like, but Alice still belongs with say Sanders.
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Yes, when I think avant-garde, I dont always think dissonance or weird. Just... something besides the norm.

Her albums can be individually tagged. She may be listed as avant-garde, but I know "Journey..." is very much world-fusion.

Which album(s) does everyone feel should be changed to world-fusion, or maybe post-bop?
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js View Drop Down
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The definition of avant-garde:
An intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts, especially in the arts.
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

The definition of avant-garde:
An intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts, especially in the arts.


Well yes, in that case, wouldn't all Prog Rock from the 70s, at least the classic acts, be avant-garde in some way?

Just curious, this has always been a doubt I had.
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Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Yes, when I think avant-garde, I dont always think dissonance or weird. Just... something besides the norm.

Her albums can be individually tagged. She may be listed as avant-garde, but I know "Journey..." is very much world-fusion.

Which album(s) does everyone feel should be changed to world-fusion, or maybe post-bop?
 
 
well essentially all of them LOL, but certainly the 76-78 albums on the Warber Bros label are a must under that tag  Eternity, Transcendance, Radha-Krsna (there is one missing still in the dbase), but also but also her last album Translinear Light. ...
 
 
but as I said, Journey, Pthah and World galaxy are also very Hindhu-based, but you can also guess the fuirst two Monastery-linked albums are world-Hindhu as well.


Edited by Sean Trane - 18 Jun 2011 at 1:31pm
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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darkshade View Drop Down
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When I get the chance this weekend, I'll go through her discography and edit the album info's.

Also, you are saying the album Radha-Krsna is missing?
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Originally posted by Abraxas Abraxas wrote:

Originally posted by js js wrote:

The definition of avant-garde:
An intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts, especially in the arts.


Well yes, in that case, wouldn't all Prog Rock from the 70s, at least the classic acts, be avant-garde in some way?

Just curious, this has always been a doubt I had.

Most people don't mean the dictionary definition of AG when they say it. 
AG has become an inaccurate slang term that tends to mean noisy, dissonant and experimental. 
The true definition is pretty vague and could be applied to lots of things.

Taken on its own, Coltrane's music might could be seen as World Fusion, but under a more historical context she was part of the AG movement of that time and in collaboration with other members of the AG.


Edited by js - 18 Jun 2011 at 2:39pm
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Originally posted by js js wrote:

Originally posted by Abraxas Abraxas wrote:

Originally posted by js js wrote:

The definition of avant-garde:
An intelligentsia that develops new or experimental concepts, especially in the arts.


Well yes, in that case, wouldn't all Prog Rock from the 70s, at least the classic acts, be avant-garde in some way?

Just curious, this has always been a doubt I had.

Most people don't mean the dictionary definition of AG when they say it. 
AG has become an inaccurate slang term that tends to mean noisy, dissonant and experimental. 
The true definition is pretty vague and could be applied to lots of things.

Taken on its own, Coltrane's music might could be seen as World Fusion, but under a more historical context she was part of the AG movement of that time and in collaboration with other members of the AG.

Yes, I agree with you concercing Alice.

I was just going a bit off topic, wanted to know more about the 'avant-garde' term in music. 
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My favorite album of hers is "Journey....." and it's much more world music inspired, there's only traces of avant-garde. However, I know there is more wild stuff in her discography. I know the album she did with Santana is kind of like world jazz meets Santana-esque jams, with some Borboletta-type beautiful parts; if that makes sense....
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The album with Santana is called 'Illuminations' and I was just listening to it. The signature song on that album, the 14 minute 'Angel of Sunlight' is pure AG jazz. the rest of the album draws equally from fusion, the AG and India. I'm inclined to recommend that album stay in AG.
I've been listening to Alice's other albums since the early 70s, I traded many of them off long ago, but my memory isn't that bad. I'm inclined to agree with AllMusic, AllAboutJazz and Downbeat and would recommend that we keep almost all, if not all of her albums in AG, as that was the musical movement she was a part of.


Edited by js - 22 Jun 2011 at 10:02pm
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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

My favorite album of hers is "Journey....." and it's much more world music inspired, there's only traces of avant-garde. However, I know there is more wild stuff in her discography. I know the album she did with Santana is kind of like world jazz meets Santana-esque jams, with some Borboletta-type beautiful parts; if that makes sense....
 
Yup, Illuminations is effectively what I'd call world fusion... It's actually her only musical collab between early 73 and early 76, apparently
 
And indeed Journey (along with Ptah El Daoud) are my fave two albums of her.
 
--------------------
 
ultimately I think what it all boils down to is semantics:
 
Do we use the real description of the music (in which case World Fusion is definitely the right answer, IMHO) or do we use the historical reference of avant-garde (which means precussor or ahead of its time) of the times (which is IMHO misleading), because then, Ellington and Bird Parker were also avant-garde at one point in history (especially Bird).
 
 
 
BTW, a lot of people might qualify Pharoah Sanders as "avant-garde" because of his dissonant free-jazz, improvs but his classic early 70's albums were generally much less dissonant than his mentor Coltrane's later works  (Ascenscion, Sunships, Meditations, Interstellar, etc....)
 
 
 
 
 
 
my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....

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Sorry pal, she's staying put.
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