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Coltrane's Africa/Brass album |
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Sean Trane 
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 Topic: Coltrane's Africa/Brass albumPosted: 15 May 2012 at 2:21am |
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Marked as Bop or Hard Bop
Definitely nothing "bop" about that album... Post Bop is best, IMHO
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 17 May 2012 at 3:37am |
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I dare say that Olè Coltrane should bear that Hard Bop tag as well
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 18 May 2012 at 2:10am |
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Actually, looking at the full Trane discography (the release while he was alive) in JMA, all the pre-ALS albums are tagged Hard Bop, and only ALS is tagged post bop, and everything else after ALS is called avant garde until his death (I agree with that part)...
For the posthumous releases, it seems the tagging is more varied, but I'd tag First Impressions and Transition as post-bop But I think that most of his Impulse! works should be tagged post-bop... I'm less sure of his Atlantic recordings, but Olé is certainly post-bop.
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Kazuhiro
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Posted: 18 May 2012 at 2:40am |
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This is a personal opinion. Therefore, this opinion is not the opinion that JMA decided.
At first it will be necessary to consider understanding with a comparison between Hard Bop and Post Bop. It is a genre derived by Hard Bop if I read a definition of Post Bop advocated by JMA. This is a main premise as a definition. An element included in Post Bop includes some parts next. 1. A theoretical expanse. 2. Shortening of the space and time. 3. A definition by musician oneself. 4. It is slightly the fusion with other genres. The definition may be surely difficult. "Africa/Brass" is Hard Bop as my personal opinion. If I consider an album of Coltrane announced from 1961 in chronological order and hear it, a hint will be hidden. The album which I announced after Coltrane withdrew from Miles Band has music based on Bop.And "ALS" was announced in 1965. And it is necessary for us to listen to the album of Miles Davis which we developed by Be-Bop descending from Bill Evans at the same time. The time when Miles Davis established Post Bop was the time when Wayne Shorter just joined it. It was the dawn of Post Bop definitely. However, I think that there is an element of Hard Bop in particular in the early days of the 60s if I consider an album of Coltrane in conjunction with a definition at the same time. And "ALS" was a turning point definitely if I thought about announced time. Coltrane would continue a challenge for the music until I arrived here. However, I think that there is still "Africa/Brass" and "Ole" in a level of Hard Bop. How do you think? |
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 18 May 2012 at 3:37pm |
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Sorry, but this is much more than an opinion... I think one must remain constant from one artiste to another...If Mingus' Dynasty, Ah Hum, Tijuana Moods are called post bop, and Miles' second qunitet albums (as early as 7 steps To Heaven) are tagged Post bop as well and a lot of Hancock's 60's albums (Empyrean, Maiden or Child) are also post-bop then Coltrane's Olé, Africa/Brass, Impressions, Crescent are much more advanced in the modal dept than anyone of those I menntioned (Mingus might be an exception, but barely) Simply becaise Trane's work is much more modal than Mingus', Herbie's or Miles' Yes, some of Trane's early 60's albums are still hard bop (the Prestige label albums, for ex), but classifying all of the pre-ALS albums as hard bop is downright misleading as for An element included in Post Bop includes some parts next. 1. A theoretical expanse. >> Check 2. Shortening of the space and time. >> Check 3. A definition by musician oneself. >> Check 4. It is slightly the fusion with other genres .>> Check, Check, Check ,Check
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Kazuhiro
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Posted: 19 May 2012 at 12:38pm |
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Possibly this may have already advanced towards going too far in saying.
Robert Fripp and Allan Holdsworth said.
The expression about the music is limited when I decided a subgenre.
I understand this opinion to some extent.
However, the listener and the mass media made a lot of subgenres for sales promotion and an index.
And the listener is often confused in a subgenre.
The musician works at a place beyond the imagination of the listener.
Therefore, it may be nonsense that we finally use a subgenre.
However, we love music and argue in this way.
If you do not yet understand, please give an opinion in this thread.
I will hear the opinion.
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Kazuhiro
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Posted: 19 May 2012 at 12:50pm |
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OK. My opinion may be wrong. The PA has a section of "Post Rock".
It did not feel me with pure RocknRoll to listen to Post Rock.
Do you think that it is pure Be-Bop and Hard Bop to listen to Post Bop?
Please compare it.
"Africa/Brass" and "Ole" are still Hard Bop for me.
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 19 May 2012 at 1:54pm |
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Post-bop From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Post-bop is a term for a form of small-combo jazz music that evolved in the early-to-mid sixties. The genre's origins lie in seminal work by John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Bill Evans, Charles Mingus, Wayne Shorter and Herbie Hancock. Generally, the term post-bop is taken to mean jazz from the mid-sixties onward that assimilates influence from hard bop, modal jazz, the avant-garde, and free jazz, without necessarily being immediately identifiable as any of the above. The term is a fairly recent coinage and (like "Northern soul") was not in common use while the genre was active. John Coltrane From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Davis and Coltrane again Coltrane rejoined Davis in January 1958. In October of that year, jazz critic Ira Gitler coined the term "sheets of sound" to describe the style Coltrane developed during his stint with Monk and was perfecting in Davis' group, now a sextet. His playing was compressed, with rapid runs cascading in hundreds of notes per minute. He stayed with Davis until April 1960, working with alto saxophonist Cannonball Adderley; pianists Red Garland, Bill Evans, and Wynton Kelly; bassist Paul Chambers; and drummers Philly Joe Jones and Jimmy Cobb. During this time he participated in the Davis sessions Milestones and Kind of Blue, and the live recordings Miles & Monk at Newport and Jazz at the Plaza.[5] At the end of this period Coltrane recorded his first album for Atlantic Records, Giant Steps, made up exclusively of his own compositions. The album's title track is generally considered to have the most complex and difficult chord progression of any widely-played jazz composition. Giant Steps utilizes Coltrane changes. His development of these altered chord progression cycles led to further experimentation with improvised melody and harmony that he would continue throughout his career.[5] First albums as leader Coltrane formed his first group, a quartet, in 1960 for an appearance at the Jazz Gallery in New York City. After moving through different personnel including Steve Kuhn, Pete La Roca, and Billy Higgins, the lineup stabilized in the fall with pianist McCoy Tyner, bassist Steve Davis, and drummer Elvin Jones. Tyner, from Philadelphia, had been a friend of Coltrane's for some years and the two men long had an understanding that the pianist would join Coltrane when Tyner felt ready for the exposure of regularly working with him. Also recorded in the same sessions were the later released albums Coltrane's Sound and Coltrane Plays the Blues. Still with Atlantic Records, for whom he had recorded Giant Steps, his first record with his new group was also his debut playing the soprano saxophone, the hugely successful My Favorite Things. Around the end of his tenure with Davis, Coltrane had begun playing soprano saxophone, an unconventional move considering the instrument's near obsolescence in jazz at the time. His interest in the straight saxophone most likely arose from his admiration for Sidney Bechet and the work of his contemporary, Steve Lacy, even though Miles Davis claimed to have given Coltrane his first soprano saxophone. The new soprano sound was coupled with further exploration. For example, on the Gershwin tune "But Not for Me", Coltrane employs the kinds of restless harmonic movement (Coltrane changes) used on Giant Steps (movement in major thirds rather than conventional perfect fourths) over the A sections instead of a conventional turnaround progression. Several other tracks recorded in the session utilized this harmonic device, including "26–2," "Satellite," "Body and Soul", and "The Night Has a Thousand Eyes". First years with Impulse Records (1960–1962) In May 1961, Coltrane's contract with Atlantic was bought out by the newly formed Impulse! Records label.[6] An advantage to Coltrane recording with Impulse! was that it would enable him to work again with engineer Rudy Van Gelder, who had taped both his and Davis's Prestige sessions, as well as Blue Train. It was at Van Gelder's new studio in Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey that Coltrane would record most of his records for the label. By early 1961, bassist Davis had been replaced by Reggie Workman while Eric Dolphy joined the group as a second horn around the same time. The quintet had a celebrated (and extensively recorded) residency in November 1961 at the Village Vanguard, which demonstrated Coltrane's new direction. It featured the most experimental music he'd played up to this point, influenced by Indian ragas, the recent developments in modal jazz, and the burgeoning free jazz movement. John Gilmore, a longtime saxophonist with musician Sun Ra, was particularly influential; after hearing a Gilmore performance, Coltrane is reported to have said "He's got it! Gilmore's got the concept!"[7] The most celebrated of the Vanguard tunes, the 15-minute blues, "Chasin' the 'Trane", was strongly inspired by Gilmore's music.[8] During this period, critics were fiercely divided in their estimation of Coltrane, who had radically altered his style. Audiences, too, were perplexed; in France he was famously booed during his final tour with Davis. In 1961, Down Beat magazine indicted Coltrane, along with Eric Dolphy, as players of "Anti-Jazz" in an article that bewildered and upset the musicians.[9] Coltrane admitted some of his early solos were based mostly on technical ideas. Furthermore, Dolphy's angular, voice-like playing earned him a reputation as a figurehead of the "New Thing" (also known as "Free Jazz" and "Avant-Garde") movement led by Ornette Coleman, which was also denigrated by some jazz musicians (including Miles Davis) and critics. But as Coltrane's style further developed, he was determined to make each performance "a whole expression of one's being".[ Edited by Sean Trane - 19 May 2012 at 1:55pm |
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Kazuhiro
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Posted: 20 May 2012 at 11:16am |
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OK. Thank you for information.
I did not use much Wikipedia. All people felt that all people might edit the history of the jazz because they had authority to edit about Wikipedia.
At first "Africa/Brass" was the album which I announced because Coltrane let you slightly express the music using Big Band.
Coltrane said.
It is an album I am accompanied by Big Band in "Africa/Brass", and to play it.
It is expression and the practice that I always thought about. "
He surely performed a lot of plan and live of the music such as Duke Ellington at this time. It is all.
And he speaks about "ALS".
"ALS" is a few presents for God. "
He has already devoted himself to Einstein and Indian philosophy at this time.
I said before, but there is the part which the definition of Post Bop is very difficult, and is vague. And "ALS" already thinks me to be a turning point of the music for him.
An album after "ALS" thinks me to be spiritual jazz not AG jazz if I say closely. However, JMA does not have the spiritual jazz section.
I think that his expression that I performed in 1961 when I added a point and the expression that he had was music based on Bop and Hard Bop.
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Sean Trane
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Posted: 28 May 2012 at 5:58am |
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Insisting a bit, but this has NOTHING to do with hard-bop or Bebop Neither does this or this: (from the album Impressions or even this: (from the album Coltrane) =================== just in case, this may be a mosern version of it, but this is what hardbop sounds like (and most of it shares a lot of similarities) or this |
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my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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