Gunther Schuller, MJQ, and the &#039;Third Stream&#039;

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Topic: Gunther Schuller, MJQ, and the 'Third Stream'
Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 9:47pm

A term coined by Gunther Schuller, Third Stream music was the synthesis of jazz and classical on a molecular level. Players had to be proficient in both styles and improvisation was as important as structure. Interestingly; Schuller noted that while purists on both sides of Third Stream objected to tainting their favorite music with the other, more strenuous objections were typically made by jazz musicians who felt such efforts were "an assault on their traditions." Schuller writes that "by designating the music as a 'separate, Third Stream,' the other two mainstreams could go about their way unaffected by the attempts at fusion." [wiki]

The Modern Jazz Quartet were among the best practitioners of this and though I've not heard enough from that classy bunch, Blues On Bach is one of my favorites.

Thoughts, comments, other artists ?

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 10:07pm

This is a big favorite of mine. a have a Pandora radio station that is based around 3rd Stream and sophisticated classic to modern jazz.

Although I would not apply my broad view of 3rd Stream on this site. To my ears I hear 3rd stream influences in these jazz artists:

Herbie Hancock mid to late 60s and much later in his career too.

The non-kitsch Don Ellis albums.

Lots of Duke Ellington

Gil Evans

Miles' work with Gil Evans

solo Bill Evans

for classical:

Gershwin

Poulenc

some Stravinsky

Milhaud

also sometimes Hindemith, Shostakovitch, Debussy and Ravel.

A real favorite for me lately is William Grant Still who wrote classical pieces based around the language of jazz and blues in the early part of the twentieth century. His music is kind of simple in a way, but it is really effective.

Lately I am really attracted to late 20s to early 40s big band jazz and its relationship to the classical music of its time. The place where Fletcher Henderson, Coleman Hawkins and Duke Ellington meet Poulenc and Milhaud is a smart urban sound that still sounds modern to me.

Edited by EZ Money - 27 Jan 2011 at 10:11pm

Kazuhiro

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 10:14pm

JMA has the mechanism that the genre can be added by the unit of the album. I learnt it by Slava.

Branford Marsalis has one "Third Stream" now.

By the way, I recalled "The Threepenny Opera" of Joachim Kuhn. However, this was not classics but the dramas.

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 10:14pm

love Bill E. too, and I keep trying to get people to hear Brubeck's Brandenburg Gate: Revisited, a real stunner .. I'll have to look into William Grant Still, thanks John

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 10:17pm

Kazuhiro wrote:

Branford Marsalis has one "Third Stream" now.

By the way, I recalled "The Threepenny Opera" of Joachim Kuhn. However, this was not classics but the dramas.

I still haven't found a Branford solo album I really like, which one is that Kaz?

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http://dev.jazzmusicarchives.com/branford-marsalis--romances-for-saxophone.aspx

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 10:21pm

I added this album by instructing John.

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 10:57pm

Atavachron wrote:

Kazuhiro wrote:

Branford Marsalis has one "Third Stream" now.

By the way, I recalled "The Threepenny Opera" of Joachim Kuhn. However, this was not classics but the dramas.

I still haven't found a Branford solo album I really like, which one is that Kaz?

I think there is too much marketing thinking going into Branford's music and it all comes out sort of forced and unnatural.

I saw him on TV one time playing some live insane high speed post-bop and he was having fun and he sounded like about the best saxophone player I ever heard in my life. He has it in him, but it rarely comes out on his records, too much A&R input probably.

Edited by EZ Money - 27 Jan 2011 at 10:58pm

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:06pm

yeah it's too bad, his playing was often better on the Sting records than on his own

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:14pm

I believe that, which reminds me of reading about how Miles was angry because Sting could steal his musicians and pay them better LOL

The other time I saw Branford go off was another live performance on TV, this time a really twisted Ornette style hip-hop piece with a repeating sax melody. You have to have some real conviction to pull off that sort or thing and Branford was great. Once again, one of the best performances I've ever heard on sax, but its true, his records can sound stilted, Buckshot LaFounque was one big disappointment.

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Posted: 27 Jan 2011 at 11:46pm

A really great piece of weird jazz by a composer is Milton Babbit's All Set for jazz ensemble, kind of humorous in its abstractions.

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Posted: 18 Apr 2011 at 9:42pm

There was a Stan Kenton album called "City of Glass" (1951) that predated the Third Stream movement significantly. Kenton was playing compositions by Robert Groettenger

http://www.allmusic.com/album/city-of-glass-stan-kenton-plays-bob-graettinger-r154962

Edited by 4theboids - 18 Apr 2011 at 9:43pm

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Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 4:17am

I consider Jacques Loussier as the master of this genre(although his Ravel and Vivaldi works impressed me less) and everything I hear I compare to him
I consider Steve Kuhn's Pavane For A dead Princess a pretty good one too.

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Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:38pm

You can also listen to Dimitri Shostakovich's quartets to get a pretty good idea of "third stream" (although I don't agree too much with the term) and pianist György Cziffra, especially the albums of his improvisation

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Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 11:19am

Mingus and Gershwin did a few mainstream compositions as far as I know? Also Hindemith helped bridge the jazz-classical gap.

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