What music is more popular-jazz or prog?
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Topic: What music is more popular-jazz or prog?
Posted By: idlero
Subject: What music is more popular-jazz or prog?
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 12:39pm
| I wonder which of these 2 genres has a larger audience |
Replies:
Posted By: triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 12:41pm
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Probably jazz, because women listen to it.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: idlero
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 12:55pm
intersting point, never thought of that... |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:04pm
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^^Just as much as prog, or less. That's my experience, but maybe you were joking.
Both genres have their universal giants, but nowadays I guess the jazz gig scene is a bit more vibrant underground than prog. But lots of progressive bands are visible in the mainstream rock press, whereas jazz... is there mainstream jazz press? ------------- 
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Posted By: idlero
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:09pm
| I can tell from my experience that it's much easier to find reviews of jazz albums than for prog(not counting PA where you have member reviews and of course , now JMA...) |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:33pm
IMO everything's viceversa, at least as far as I know. Jazz is a huge phenomenon, gathering millions of people every year all around Europe especially via festivals ( http://www.jazzfests.net/" rel="nofollow - here's an amazing, complete list of festivals in Europe; there are going to be 25 festivals in the next three weeks!). There is jazz everywhere in the media, even dedicated media institutions such as Mezzo (  ) and many radio stations (one of my favourites is TSF from France); compared to this, all the prog stations that I know are online "radios", not real stations, and prog basically doesn't exist in visual media. If you compare THE ultimate prog site, PA, which has that amazing database, to a fairly good and representative site like AllAboutJazz, which is mostly news, interviews and editors' reviews, PA has a ranking of only 32,776 and gets only 1200 links, while AAJ has the ranking of 23,404 and almost 3300 incoming links. And at all jazz concerts I've been, the number of women was much larger than at the prog concerts. Even harmonium.ro consists almost only of jazz articles.   |
Pekka wrote:Posted By: idlero
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:41pm
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It would be interesting to compare sales figures if someone has the information...My feeling is that excepting some jazz CD's which get high exposure there are a lot with pretty low sales-at least that the impression I get looking at the Amazon sales rating, and I don't know if these figures are representative for the market |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:45pm
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Jazz festivals are a curious phenomenon. One of Finland's biggest festival is Pori Jazz, but when you look at the headliners every year, they've got hip hop, soul, dub... and some jazz in the small tents around the area. And Montreux jazz festival? Is it actually a jazz happening? But yeah, when comparing gigs between Helsinki and Prague (haven't seen any prog in Prague though) there might be slightly more women around in jazz, but not that noticeably. Big newspapers hardly talk about prog, especially underground prog, but jazz is more visible there definitely. It's art, whereas prog is just rock. -------------
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Posted By: idlero
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:49pm
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How many women come for the music and how many come with their boyfriends/husbands? |
Posted By: Pekka
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:54pm
I'd like to think that women have a mind of their own
But well, I guess it happens, and the other way around too for some other kinds of gigs. The few I personally know all come for the music.-------------
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Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 1:57pm
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I'd say jazz is much more popular than prog, because it appeals to such a wide variety of people - older people who aren't interested in rock, younger people who are interested in more than just rock, everything in between.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow">  
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: 11 Apr 2011 at 2:24pm
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Im at school so I dont have time to say everything I'd like to but if we're talking sales alone, jazz has prog beat. Sure there are some individual prog bands that climb the charts, but as a whole, not really. Some jazz albums have sold in the millions, I'm not sure if any individual prog albums have sold that much (I'm sure they have. And I'm not talking about Pink Floyd, as they are not strictly prog IMO, and are the exception to the "rule") I would also say jazz has many household names, whereas I would argue prog doesnt. If you entered a crowded room and yelled "Miles Davis!", "Herbie Hancock!", "Louis Armstrong!", etc I'm sure a few people would turn their heads. Aside from yelling "YES!" which wouldn't work well in this situation, yelling any other band name besides Pink Floyd would not gather much attention. (Maybe Rush?) There are also a few jazz radio stations in my area, whereas even classic rock radio rarely plays prog (again, besides Pink Floyd, they are beyond "prog" in terms of popularity; most people do not associate them with prog) Maybe it's different in Europe, but I live in the NYC tri state area, so I base my observations on the general public of this area. So I say jazz is more popular. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm |
Posted By: Hawkwise
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 7:12pm
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JAZZ with out doubt is HUGE all around the World
------------- "If you're trying to be hip, be hip." - Miles Davis |
Posted By: Matt
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 7:17pm
Jazz but prog does come close only because it has so much jazz in it  ------------- Matt |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: 21 Apr 2011 at 7:35pm
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jazz by faaaaar, I don't see any other possibility ..that is unless you combine the collective popularity of Floyd, Tull, Yes, etc.-- I suspect, worldwide, jazz still wins but it's harder to say with more younger people familiar with albums as The Wall than they are Kind of Blue |
Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: 22 Apr 2011 at 9:57am
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Jazz by a whisker but i prefer Prog ------------- 
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 2:04pm
that's a no-brainer... at least for me...
 )
I'd say that casual listeners of the prog giants likeGenesis or Crimson are not necessarily "prog fans" either
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Posted By: Nathaniel607
Date Posted: 23 Apr 2011 at 2:16pm
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I don't know what it is about jazz, but it seems to have a problem where it is much harder to find out and hear exerts from new (and even old!) releases. It's especially weird when I see albums that have a lot of praise as masterpieces and visionary but only have one or two clips on youtube. |
Posted By: Cannonball With Hat
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:10pm
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Jazz absolutely. Prog is very niche "genre" whereas Jazz is much much larger (and an actual genre as opposed to sub genre). Others made very good points (harmonium/darkshade) which I completely agree with. ------------- Hit it on Five. Saxophone Scatterbrain Blitzberg Stab them in the ears. |
Posted By: The Manticore
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:35pm
The OP was;
What music is more popular-jazz or prog?In my house they get equal billing ------------- When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading. |
Posted By: Freddie Freeloader
Date Posted: 24 Apr 2011 at 11:51pm
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Posted By: triceratopsoil
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 12:05am
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It's not entirely fair to say that prog rock is a subgenre of rock; it's more like progressiveness is a trait that some rock music has.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/TullDerGraff" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 4:57am
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BTW progressive rock/music is often considered an extension of jazz around here and I can't really disagree. For example, the latest big poster that appeared at the parisian metro is one that is shared by four acts, each on his corner: YES, Brit Floyd (Pink Floyd cover band), the 2011 Return To Forever and George Benson. Most of the important prog concerts are held by the jazz/fusion/world music club Le Triton, and usually when I search for info about these concerts on Google, I find them discussed on jazz sites. And finally, most of the French musicians doing "progressive" stuff have a jazz education. So the idea of this post is that in France jazz and prog are not considered opposites. Even back then when the progressive movement appeared in France with Magma, if you watch TV interviews with them from 1970 they say that what they do is to mix jazz with pop music. |
Posted By: Prog Geo
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 9:20am
I agree. That's why on PA there are pages of jazz artists (like Miles Davis). Many prog rock artists have jazz education and jazz rock/fusion is an example of the jazzy side of prog rock. |
Posted By: Freddie Freeloader
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 11:23am
That could be sayed for most any genre... the point is though that prog is a much smaller niche than jazz. Jazz has been around for about a century now and was the most popular music in the world for about half of that time. Prog has been around for about half as long and was slightly popular for about a decade. Capital P Prog is a subgenre of rock prog-metal a subgenre of metal, jazz is a subgenre only of music.
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Posted By: innervisions
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:13pm
| Frankly, I am stunned by the question. Jazz has incomparably more visibility and is a much bigger part of popular culture than prog has ever been. As is the case with classical music, even people who don't listen to jazz are at least well aware of its existence. |
Posted By: Abraxas
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:24pm
Your last sentence is pretty much true. However, you have to take in account that Prog Rock, first of all is a name that all not use, and second that it's a sub-genre. Say, everybody has heard of Pink Floyd, but there's people who don't know what Prog Rock is, or wouldn't name Floyd prog rock. But yes, like you said, as a genre Jazz is more known than Prog Rock.
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Posted By: innervisions
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:30pm
Agreed with respect to Floyd but there are still only a handful of prog rock bands enjoying that kind of popularity and most from that handful are from the 70s. Also, the snob appeal that jazz enjoys gives it a huge advantage when it comes to assimilation.
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Posted By: idlero
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:43pm
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What is obvious for others is not so obvious for me, most prog lovers I know from my friends stay away from jazz. If we take away from the equation the smooth jazz and the vocal jazz(that a lot of people non jazz listeneres have tried it at least once and would listen to Norah Jones and alikes) jazz would be still leading in numbers because it is around since so many years, but the figures will probably drop seriously What about the 70's when prog was at the peak? If I'm not mistaken, some of the best jazz artists can only dream to fill stadiums or reach the selling figures of the bestselling prog albums ------------- I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ... Ken Burns |
Posted By: Abraxas
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 12:47pm
Yes, but in terms of known me and innervisions have a point. EVERYBODY knows about the term 'jazz', has heard it on a commercial, on a movie, the typical black and white photography, etc. Of course, they don't have a clue of what it's really about, or can't name even a musician. However, in terms of popularity meaning album sells and concert sells, there you might have a good point. (which I know about, but wasn't talking about it)
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Posted By: Freddie Freeloader
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 4:18pm
the fact that jazz of that time was not played to huge stadiums has more to do with advances in amplification technology than it does with popularity
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 5:42pm
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1- Well over 80% of the progheads I know are jazzheads or JR/Fheads.... Only the more symphonic-minded (read close-minded) dislike a bit of jazz in their music.... 2- If Miles and trane were alive today, they'd fill arenas no problem 3- Most people attending Genesis or Tull concerts don't assimilate the band's music to "prog" or even know of prog as a style... it's also unfair to compare the 60's scene to the 70's industry/business... the finabncial means were quite different |
Posted By: innervisions
Date Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 9:39pm
| Well, Hugues has given the answer I would have. I would also put a certain kind of prog metalheads, the ones who listen mainly to melodic prog metal, in that category who don't like jazz. But it would be very strange for a Canterbury/fusion loving proghead to profess dislike for jazz. And I thought we were talking about either overall popularity or popularity in the present day. In both cases, jazz is the answer. When jazz was at its commercial peak, the music business had not yet grown to the size it would but some of the landmark jazz albums invaded the Billboards, like Time Out. Jazz was the prog of the 50s. But that the music business became bigger is on account of Beatles and not prog. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2011 at 11:46am
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You see far more jazz specialist stores/shops than prog record specialists - even my local prog specialist Ultima Thule has an ~80:20 split between progressive/related musics and jazz related . HMV's flagship store in London's Oxford Street, has separate sections for jazz/blues and classical recordings but buries the prog amongst the pop and rock**. My guess that audiences for gigs are about the same, the biggest and most popular of either genre pull in the numbers. I think RTF and Dream Theater have filled O2 in Greenwich, while the others have to settle for much smaller venues. However, a number of top rank American jazz acts can fill the smaller Barbican on summer tours (note I'm sticking to the London area) even at inflated prices. (Perhaps a subject for a separate thread: do American jazz artists treat the European fans as milkcows, asking for far more than they would in the USA or Canada?)
** When I was SIngapore on business in 2000, I went searching for Kazumi Watanabe recordings at the local branch of HMV, and found them easily in their jazz record dept.
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Posted By: idlero
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2011 at 2:04pm
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Jazz is for clubs not for stadiums.
------------- I think the problem with a lot of the fusion music is that it's extremely predictable, it's a rock rhythm and the solos all play the same stuff and they play it over and over again ... Ken Burns |
Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: 14 Jul 2011 at 4:43pm
I believe it. Especially Miles. Depending on what direction Trane would have taken, him too. I always wondered if Trane would have went in the fusion direction had he lived into the 70s... ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 6:36am
Good question. AFAIK ticket prices are set by promoters according to local costs, which vastly overwhelm the artist fee in the total. The US is much cheaper than Europe in what concerts are concerned just like it is with CDs, food, rent, basically everything. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 6:38am
Contemporary jazz yes, but more or less classic jazz is for concert halls, square/park concerts. Better than prog anyway. |
Posted By: snobb
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 6:55am
And funk jazz- I regularly visit annual jazz fest in Klaipeda where they specializes on funk jazz or funk artists. The scene is placed in central town's square and every of three nights there come few thousand (!) fans to listen and to dance near the scene. It works perfectly  . BTW I saw there some great artists during few last years - Tower Of Power,Earth,Wind & Fire, Marilyn Mazur, Maceo Parker,Incognito,etc. (free entrance is a standard as well
) |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 15 Jul 2011 at 7:04am
some jazz festivals in Europer can attract huge (well all things considered abnd relative) audiences, like Rotterdam's North Sea Jazz Festival, but indeed they've got the names to draw that public
As for treating European fans like milking cow, it's not really up the jazzers or their managers , but more like the organizing mafias that are driving the prices up.... of course the artistes see to how big the crowds they are playing to.... so they can always announce their privces, and the organizers always have a wide array of choice for their festivals
I'll post a Dinant Jazz Festival link below... take a look at the line-up and remember that Dinant is a 5 000 people city (birthplace of Adolphe Sax, mind you) some 80 km south of Brussels in the Ardennes.
http://www.dinantjazznights.org/program.asp" rel="nofollow - http://www.dinantjazznights.org/program.asp
Amazing, uh
  ??? Especially the monday !!! (may go to it, if workload permits) OK, the place is filled with holidaying (notoriously-cheap) Hollanders in July (statistically the rainiest month of the year), but they're not garanteed to make a fortune
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BTW: I thought that the UT shop was or is in the process of closing...
 ------------- my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2012 at 12:23pm
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I think prog is more popular when considering individual bands/artists. Jazz, as a whole genre, is definitely more popular than prog.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: 13 Apr 2012 at 2:33pm
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While prog appeals to a broader age group as time moves along, jazz now encompasses all age groups so I'd have to say jazz is still more popular in general. The shame is that not enough of the older folks (like me) are contributing their experienced opinions of the genre online so that the generations to come will know what it was like to hear a new Miles Davis or Dave Brubeck album for the very first time.
------------- Make a joyful noise unto the Lord... |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2012 at 11:14am
Good point, Rollie...  When reviewing an album I myself (nearing 50) try to imagine how groundbreaking it might have been back when it was first released. It's definitely not an easy task for me as it is to do so for prog (since I started listening to prog at 11 in 74), but for jazz, this is something different... since (despite being subjected at swing jazz in my childhood > thanks dad ) I only really started listening to jazz (on my own initiative) around 83, but still skimmed it somewhat back then.... The other difficult poiint to appreciate the "groundbreakingness" of a 50's album going in the reverse direction (from the 70's to the 40's), escially coming from such a complex music style as prog... Indeed, I'm kind f at a loss to find Ornette Coleman all the hoopla about his supposedly "groudbreaking" stuff... Of course I manage it somewhat in the long run, but it might have been much easier if I'd work in jazz from the 30's until the 70's, rather than reverse.. But I'm having too much problems finding any kind of interest in be-bop or swing, finding it old-timers music to perseverate in that forward in time progression hopefully I made sense in my ramblings  ------------- my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2012 at 4:41pm
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Has to be jazz, I think.
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Posted By: Cannonball With Hat
Date Posted: 14 Apr 2012 at 11:51pm
I completely understand. I do often feel underwhelmed at some of the 'great, groundbreaking' works of the greats for that very reason. Either its been done alot, or better, or whatever. Historical context is certainly important but something I take with a grain of salt nowadays. ------------- Hit it on Five. Saxophone Scatterbrain Blitzberg Stab them in the ears. |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: 15 Apr 2012 at 2:36am
Even more difficult to assess is that the groundbreaking done in a certain era, that lead to some more groundbreaking, done better or gone futher (one that might have had more resonance on a wider public). One that might make the judged work seem relatively tame compared with works that built on it and were released two years later... Yeah, that's where I was getting at with Rollie's statement: it's really up to the guys who lived the music and the succession of the groundbreaking releases of the era that can really realize this... and give us the hints... Now I guess there are hundreds of books explaining this, but finding the knowledge on the web is probably not that easy... partly because it's not on the web. (that's why we're here , but finding knowledgeable collabs proves more difficult than for PA and JMA, where the pyramid age of the knowledgeable is quite younger and more web-friendly/receptive to dispell it's savoir-faire)Just like in PA, imagine some 15y-old proghead having a good historical perspective... It must be tough for some to get into ELP or Procol Harum, when contemporary bands like Porcupine Tree gives you the "go" nowadays, because it (ELP or PH) may sound as dated to them as Duke Ellington or Glen Miller sounds dated to me hopefully, my ramblings still make sense ------------- my music collection increased tenfolds when I switched from drug-addicted musicians to crazy ones....
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Posted By: Frederic_Alderon
Date Posted: 13 Nov 2018 at 2:04pm
| I stick to the jazz as well as the auditory is huge and the popularity as well... |