Chord Progression Suggestions
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Topic: Chord Progression Suggestions
Posted By: chuckyspell
Subject: Chord Progression Suggestions
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 9:11am
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For the following chord progression I'd like some suggestions in terms of substitutions, extensions and alterations. The original is I - V - viim - IV  So in C that would be C - G - Am - F I've come up with E7/C - Fm7/G - F#dim - Bm/F Suggestions?
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Replies:
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 9:27am
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Am would be vi not vii Some of your chords may not be spelled right, you have an F at the root of a b,d, f # triad, maybe that was on purpose. If you want to modernize your C G am F sequence, and still have it function the way the original does, try this. em7/C am7/G em7/A am7/F
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 9:44am
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Now in a modern blues style. em7b5/C dm7 bm7b5/G am7 cm6 F7
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:01am
In terms of the spelling I was going for Cmaj7#5 - G11b9 - F#dim - Fmaj13b9#11. Hope that's better. But thanks for the suggestions!
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js wrote:Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:13am
| I see, I went back to your original, it sounds good with some really extended harmonies, but I don't get the diminished chord it seems out of place. Do you mean a fully diminished 7 chord ie f# a c d# |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:21am
By the way, I bet you could write some good album reviews. 
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Posted By: Jazz Pianist
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:54am
You mean vi (or vim)? None of this really works man, I can tell by looking at it (with the greatest of respect to you) - First chord is along the right lines of tertiary substitution (substitution by thirds), however there is one note that clouds its identity as a diatonically functioning chord, and that's the B natural, the 5th of E7. Because C is the route of your chord, for it to sound nice you need to treat it like a C7 chord, using notes from E7 to spice it up. As mentioned above, the only issue is the B natural, and to make the chord function as a nice dominant, just flatten it. Your new chord would be E7(b5)/C, or otherwise known as a C9(#5). -The next chord would work fine for an unresolved effect, however personally I'd keep the F in the bass and make it a minor 9, just a suggestion. - I don't really understand the context of this chord (f#dim) unless you are modulating to Gm, which you don't in the next chord. Maybe think this over a little bit more? Diminished chords have a very special place and mostly function as a hollow type dominant as a substitute for chord V, e.g. you're F# diminished would work nicely as a substitute for D7 in G minor, so long as it wasn't an final cadence. You can't really dot them around anywhere in diatonic harmony... - Unless you are purposely trying to create something that sounds horrific (horror movie composers use this bad boy all the time), then this chord has pretty much no function, because the parent chord and the root note are a tritone apart. Minor chords don't have a tritone relationship like dominant 7th chords do! Your initial chord sequence is ok, however it doesn't really serve itself to substitutions as it kind of ignores pythagoras's pendulum model. I'd suggest changing the order around so that the G is at the end of the sequence. As for effective substitutions in western harmony, I'll be posting an article of mine on them in the next few days, referring to all the most commonly used substitutions (including tritone and tertiary) plus some harmony basics, so I'll link you here. Also feel free to inbox me |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 11:59am
| sorry guys now I've seen it I meant vim (typo error) |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:03pm
Yes that's what I meant.
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:15pm
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Fully diminished chords aren't usually used in modern jazz (since about the early 40s) they sound pretty square compared to the other more complex chords you are using there. Like jazz pianist said, they were great for in house organ players when accompanying old horror movies  Try looking into half-diminished chords ie f# a c e etc, which will supply a much more modern sound that would jive better with your modern extended chords.
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:20pm
| In most modern (post 40s) jazz, a fully diminished chord is like a substitute for a dominant 7th and would probably be spelled out like a 7th with a flat 9, but just a plain fully diminished seventh chord without any extra tones is going to sound dated. |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:21pm
So for a I - V - vim - IV chord progression what would you play?
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:25pm
OK cool! As the saying goes "You gotta learn something every day."
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:31pm
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:43pm
As it's a band situation and I'm more of a hired gun not the band leader, I'm not in a position to make changes to the progression. It's what I've got to work with. Blame it on U2 "With or Without You". That's why I really want to toy around with it.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 12:46pm
 Don't have the jazz maturity for that yet. |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 1:13pm
| If you're just trying to dress up some U2 changes, try that first variation I dropped off, it will put the song into modern pop-jazz territory similar to EW&F and Steely Dan. You'll still be able to hear the initial progression too, just more modern and 'jazzy'. |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 1:18pm
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Here's another Steely Dan type variation on your original: Bb Maj/C FMaj/G em7/A am7/F
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:25pm
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Thanks so far! What are some other suggestions if I wanted to go for the jugular in an avant garde or bop way?
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 10:39pm
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This one is dissonant, but still in your original functional harmony: C in the bass with E Bb Eb voiced in the right hand G in the bass, slide that right hand up a half step to F B E A in the bass with G C# F# in the right hand F in the bass, slide the previous notes up a half step to G# D G You have to voice it the above way to sound cool, but what you have is: C7 #9 G13 A13 Fm13
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Jul 2011 at 11:53pm
 Thank you!
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:00am
| A three note stack consisting of a tritone and a 4th, or vice versa is the sound of modern jazz starting with Monk and then Tyner, Evans, Herbie etc. |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:08am
| Looking back at your example I see that's what you're doing. |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:16am
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Monk probably wasn't the first, I'm sure Art Tatum, Ellington and Bud Powell used these too. What instrument do you play?
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:26am
| I play guitar but I admire piano/keyboard players like Art Tatum, Chick Corea, Herbie Hancock, Hiromi Uehara, Jan Hammer, McCoy Tyner and Thelonious Monk. And I'm always trying to work on my harmonic sensibilities. |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 12:33am
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Since you play guitar you might enjoy trying McLaughlin's "Dance of the Maya", its a blues progression, but voiced so it sounds abstract, great piece to play on the guitar. I have a book that has that in it. Its not real hard, but not super easy either. I mostly play RnB and RnB/jazz keyboards, but I play some guitar too.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 1:12am
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I've listened to Dance of the Maya many times over the years I have the MIDI E7#9-A7-F#M7b5-G7-Dm then repeating substituting the Dm with a tritone G#M7b5 then everything is carried up a 4th then it's closed off with C#m9/Eb-CmM7b5-C#7b9-A/Bb-B7b9 |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 8:04am
So what would the chords look with the intervals inverted in the stack? Boy I think I really need Jazz Pianist's article on functional harmony!
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 8:41am
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Either its a 4th with a tritone on top, or a tritone with a 4th on top, both are good. Sometimes you just stack perfect 4ths to get minor 11th chords such as in Herbie's "Maiden Voyage" Getting back to the tritone and 4th stack: Those notes then usually provide a third, a seventh and an altered tone for a chord, for instance E Bb and Eb provide the third, seventh and plus 9 of a C7b9 chord. F B E provide the 7th, third and 13th of a G13 and so on. They don't always provide those exact three intervals, but that is common.
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Posted By: Jazz Pianist
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 11:28am
Personally, I'd swap the vi and the I around and make chords I and V dominant sevenths. In C: Am9 - Db7/G - C+7/Gb - F13 |
Posted By: Jazz Pianist
Date Posted: 29 Jul 2011 at 11:44am
Tastey man, you sound like you know your stuff! Other nice voicings for dominant chords that I find quite sexy, in the context of C7: C in the bass - Bb Half Diminished shape in the right hand E7b5 in the right hand |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2011 at 5:55pm
| Keep going guys, please! |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2011 at 6:02pm
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We probably need a new chord progression, I think we wore that one out. I'm not good for much tonight, but I'll check it tomorrow.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 30 Jul 2011 at 6:29pm
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OK. If God permits, soon I'll try these out in a rehearsal setting. I won't be playing unaccompanied but with two other guitar players and a keysman all playing the good old I-V-vim-IV...should be interesting as I'll take out all the roots, thirds and fifths and just play the colors.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2011 at 10:35am
OK here's another vim IV I V Dm Bb F C
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 31 Jul 2011 at 12:14pm
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Lets do the contemporary jazz sound again while keeping the same bass line: Em7/D AbMaj7/Bb Gm7/F Dm7/C which is: Dm13 Bb13 F13 C13 but it has to be voiced the way it is up there or it won't sound right.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 1:13pm
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Thanks so far. How would you apply Coltane changes to the progressions I've cited.
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 6:42pm
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I'm not sure what you mean by Coltrane changes. The infamous Giant Steps is mostly a series of ii V I progressions, if I remember correctly. In later years he would just toss the chord changes and play the tune over a modal vamp. Here's a nice Coltrane modal vamp to try: The left hand vamps d g c and then e a d while the right improvises on the d dorian scale. (defgabc) My upstairs neighbor is playing "The Pina Colada Song" at high volume while I type this
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 13 Sep 2011 at 9:05pm
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Sorry about the neighbours! My headphones usually come in handy at high volume for those situations! Coltrane Changes are the ii-V-I substitution as follows ii7 | | V7 | I || dm7 Eb7 | Ab B7 | E G7 | C || m2 P4 m3 P4 m3 P4 So I'm guessing we would have to ii-V-I substitute the original chords first. The original chords are I-V-vim-IV. So how would you go about it?
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 6:26am
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OK, the destination chords are still Dm Bb F C i:/Dm G7/ /Bb7/ /D7/ /A7 C7/ /FMaj7/ /C7/:i It makes a loop.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 12:18pm
| With the original chords being G D Em C, how would you do it? |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 14 Sep 2011 at 5:19pm
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A typical example of what I would do would be G D Em C GM7 CM7 Am7 D7 GM7 Em7 Am7 D7 GM7 C Am7 D7 OR G D Em C GM7 Em7 A7#9 D7 G7#5 Em7 A7#9 F#m7b5 C A7#5 D7 G
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 15 Sep 2011 at 12:52pm
| The top one is really good, I might have to look at the second one more. |
Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 25 Sep 2011 at 10:21pm
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I wanted to break it down to only one chord between chords. This is what I played today. G D Em C G C#7 D Bm Em C#7 C F#m Any comments?
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Posted By: js
Date Posted: 26 Sep 2011 at 8:27pm
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Here's a snappy chord progression using your triads. In 4 time, two beats to each chord, or two chords to a measure.
GMaj7 Am7 DMaj7 Bm7 Em7 Dm7 FMaj7 CMaj7 It sounds best if the second chord of each measure comes in on the and of 2, not the downbeat.
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 28 Sep 2011 at 12:20am
| It has a smooth jazz feel to it with the major 7ths...I'm still looking forward to a Coltrane change treatment on this progression. |
Posted By: js
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 1:18pm
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OK, using G D Em C, try this: /G7C7/ /Eb7D7/ /B7Em7/ /A7C7/ /Eb7D7/ and repeat
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Posted By: chuckyspell
Date Posted: 05 Oct 2011 at 7:33pm
Thank you! 
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